The Louis Pasteur of Junkiedom ([info]calamityjon) wrote,
@ 2008-07-24 10:02:00
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Okay, right here will be a good spot for fans of Doctor Who to join me in spazzing out utterly about the finale for Season 4.

I finally got around to watching it last night, all three episodes - ALTHOUGH I had originally thought that it was a two-parter composed entirely of "Turn Left" and "The Stolen Earth," so when we got to the cliffhanger at the end of that second episode and I saw the TO BE CONTINUED, I literally yelped out loud. Fifteen minutes earlier and in subsequent five minute intervals, I'd been thinking "Well, the episode wraps up in ten minutes, how are these assholes going to fix all of this now? Five minutes to go and they still haven't started resolving anything, I wonder what shitty deus ex machina is going to ruin this episode for me this time?" and then "AHHHHHHHHHH NO WAY" and a mad rush to, er, acquire part three.

I wisely chose not to indulge in reading the spoilers, so I received the full impact of Sarah Jane and Torchwood crossing over, the juvenile visceral thrill of hearing that "Exterminate!" come out over the speakers, the very welcome return of Davros (whom I always thought was woefully underused in the original series), a delightful dash of K-9, the welcome return of Mickey Jones (Guys, I loved Mickey from his first appearance, you johnny-come-latelies can eat it) and - oh lord, I can't believe how much I loved this - Harriet Jones, former Prime Minister! She was possibly my favorite recurring background character, in her way a Brigadier for the new Doctor, and I'm so thrilled to see that she played out a character arc.

I also enjoyed the wee bit of in-jokeyness this episode, the delightful prosody of Catherine Tate cheerily rattling off pseudo-scientific nonsense with confident aplomb, the downplaying of Captain Jack for fucking once. I can't say I appreciated the resolution of the Donna Noble arc, not because it was sad or shocking but because it was irritating. It sort of underlines many of the problems I have with Doctor Who, in that the female characters don't really get much of a shot at growing ...



As a testament to these three episodes, I would have to say I only found myself rolling my eyes once - maybe twice - per chapter. Given the last two years' worth of stories, that's a record.

[info]ludickid mentioned that, of all the people whom he knew who watched the new Doctor Who, none of them seemed to be enjoying it. I have to give him that, I'm a dedicated viewer and yet, stupidly, I get incredibly frustrated with the damn show. It has major problems - it runs all of forty-five minutes, but there've been very few episodes that couldn't have had ten minutes cut out of them, if not fifteen, twenty or even thirty. None of the two-parters since the first season have had to be two-parters, and so the episodes are relentlessly padded; the swelling orchestral music is overwhelming; the female characters are defined almost entirely by (a) how awesome they think the Doctor is and (b) their relationships with their mothers; much dialogue is spent underlining the obvious, when it isn't just two female characters sitting down and talking about how awesome the Doctor is1; and so the fuck on.

I almost don't know why I endure all of this and much more; that the actors are charismatic only goes so far, you get damn sick of their scripted awe after a while. The show has potential, which gives my hyperactive imagination a chance to play with the world that Russel T Davies is stitching together out of thirty-plus years of incidentally assembled continuity (the very thing for which I love Grant Morrison so much, when he does it with DC's history), and you can't put down too much a show that fires up the ol' gears. Mostly I do watch it to see how Davies - warts and all - stitches together a mythos which was assembled on the fly by journeyman script writers whose eyes were on cheap thrills rather than coherent universe-building, as I find that kind of Wold-Newtonism fascinating. And then, of course, it's worth it for when episodes like these come along, which for all its and the series faults, I enjoyed immensely.

I usually cannot abide genre fiction, and I'm only able to enjoy Doctor Who because I enjoyed it when I was a kid, so I have a nostalgic emotional attachment to it. I couldn't stand Buffy, I have no interest in Heroes, I give no shits about Battlestar Galactica - I just cannot get involved in these stories, possibly because the scope is so enormous but the heroic trope demands victory over all evils.

It's ridiculous when you think about it, when you look at a typical dramatic work and the conflicts that the characters face therein, all the questions you find yourself asking about the protagonists and their challenges - will this guy beat his drug addiction, will this one balance family and school, will this one overcome this illness or get out from this awful relationship or whatever? You never know, on the best shows, your favorite character could fail ninety-nine times out of a hundred against the most mundane daily challenges, she might cheat on her husband or he might start shooting up again, you never know what little temptations and troubles will overcome them. But in fantasy and science fiction, there's monsters from outer space who shoot lasers out of their eyes and mind control you and have conquered a million worlds but OBVIOUSLY they're going to get beaten in the end. McNulty on the Wire may never wrestle his demons back in the bottle, but Doctor Who can obviously beat Satan by yelling at him (seriously, he did).

It ends up being hard to give a shit about a world like that, where all the evils are unimaginably humongous but inevitably beaten. It would be fine if the shows didn't routinely use that as the crux of their drama, but of course they do - it's the conceit of genre fiction, all the character stuff happens in between dragon attacks.

I'm not a hundred percent sure why I enjoy Doctor Who - more as a concept than an actual show, I admit - but I suppose it has very little to do with the actual episodes. I think I love the premise, the ideas at play, the delightful sense of joyful cognitive dissonance at a robot dog who is also the world's most advanced computer and an adventurer, or a beat-up phone booth that travels through time, or the idea that the future is this wonderland of optimistic possibilities, that forces of menace are dire and ominous but better dealt with abstractly, that good is a big loud gaudy thing in converse tennies and can fix most problems with a screwdriver. In its ideal form, it's absurd and more than a little camp, and is nothing but inspired ideas at play.

Anyway, really good season finale. I think I could stop watching now.

1Doctor Who drinking game: Every time two female characters sit down and have an ominous conversation about how badass the Doctor is, take a shot. If one of them says something incredibly fruity like "He is like the fire between the stars," take two. Watch a whole episode and then wake up the following morning with the events of the previous evening blacked out and a new tattoo.


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[info]archaica
2008-07-24 05:22 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I find myself enjoying individual episodes of Doctor Who when I watch them, but when I watch a bunch in a row, it's like, "Really? Did they just jump right to inserting fandom into the show for them?"

I see your problem with genre fiction, and I respect it - it is especially insulting when the USS Enterprise goes from "OMG We're all going to die" to "Ah, crisis resolved, oh, the main power is back online" in five minutes. At least hide your hand, folks ...

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[info]elyssadc
2008-07-24 05:27 pm UTC (link)
It ends up being hard to give a shit about a world like that, where all the evils are unimaginably humongous but inevitably beaten.

That's so interesting. Especially because I have the exact opposite reaction. I can't seem to ever get myself to give a shit about non-scifi shows/media because the evils are all pathetically small and melodramatic. Everyone just angsting about their own personal bullshit all the time. Bores me to tears. But hearing you actually explain how you interact with the fictional universes in a way so diametrically opposed to the way I interact is pretty damn fascinating.

As for your thoughts on NuWho, I'm pretty much in agreement with you.

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[info]mckennl
2008-07-24 05:34 pm UTC (link)
FWIW, BSG is a bit more like The Wire than Dr. Who as you describe them. I would put it right in the middle between the two if I was making a grid, maybe closer to The Wire than that. Although I don't watch Dr. Who so who knows.

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[info]calamityjon
2008-07-24 05:58 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I watched the first three episodes of Battlestar Galactica and whereas I found the set and costume design interesting and some of the characters compelling, my brain just shuts down at "And here come our robot oppressors whom we must depose." Also, some of the acting was not good.

I have to give BSG credit for letting the heroes lose, lose, lose, lose and lose, and having their environment be utterly smacked by oppressive forces. My grudging appreciation of Star Treks Deep Space Nine and Enterprise were based almost solely on the fact of the all important second act wherein everything goes wrong and the heroes can't catch a break ...

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[info]mckennl
2008-07-24 06:03 pm UTC (link)
I think you would enjoy it, honestly, and especially the direction in which "And here come our robot oppressors whom we must depose" has ultimately gone. (But your time is probably better spent creating cool stuff like the Ouija Message Board than getting hooked on another teevee show, for serious.)

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[info]calamityjon
2008-07-24 06:12 pm UTC (link)
I also have zero nostalgic connection to Battlestar Galactica, unless they've put another chimp inside a robot dog suit recently ...

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[info]fiduch
2008-07-28 04:54 am UTC (link)
oh muffit, you delightfully freakish little companion droid, you.

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[info]tmbgcat
2008-07-24 05:47 pm UTC (link)
That's why Bayliss and Pembleton should investigate vampires, figure everything out and just as they're about to nail the motherfuckers some bureaucrat steps in and the vampires walk. Our intrepid duo take the case to Giardello, who is super pissed, but his hands our tied on this one. He says something like "Go home Frank. Get some sleep". Pembleton turns his back on God again and because of a faulty system Baltimore's vampire problem sky rockets.

I think this might involve a full blown Law & Order crossover. Or at least a Mike Logan cameo.

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[info]calamityjon
2008-07-24 05:58 pm UTC (link)
You joke, but on some level, I like.

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[info]tmbgcat
2008-07-24 06:02 pm UTC (link)
no, I'm not joking. I'd flip my lid if I saw that.

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[info]counterfeitfake
2008-07-24 05:58 pm UTC (link)
I understand preferring storytelling where you aren't sure of the outcome. I like being surprised and I usually applaud when a show/movie has the guts to do something subversive. But it IS subversive- "good guys win" is so pervasive and taken-for-granted, it sounds like you're excluding yourself from enjoying about 90% of all fiction out there.

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[info]tmbgcat
2008-07-24 06:04 pm UTC (link)
That's why you have to love a story so well told that even though you absolutely know 100% for sure that the good guy is going to win, you're still worried for him/her a couple times.

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[info]calamityjon
2008-07-24 06:10 pm UTC (link)
Well, it's not that I would never want to watch a story where the protagonists come out ahead, I just don't want to be going into one where the conclusion is foregone. Five minutes into a show and the biggest threat in the universe appears but another biggest threat in the universe appeared last week, and the week before? That shit's a waste of my time.

I like small, personal, human conflicts because those can go awry and overwhelm a character, and you still have stories to tell afterwards. If the human race is destroyed by robot men or a giant amoeba eats the universe, then, hey, they either have to be defeated or the show ends, no fun.

Like, to use Doctor Who for an example, I enjoyed the first season "will they won't they" of the Doctor seeming to fall for Rose Tyler. Good human stuff, if it goes one way or t'other then you've still got a story, and the characters change and grow with it. Daleks destroy everything, not as cool

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[info]prof_vencire
2008-07-24 07:30 pm UTC (link)
The way to make it more palatable is when, sure, you know the trope demands VICTORY, but see that the storyteller is perfectly alright with making the price for victory be anything. "I don't care if they win, as long as they might die." Which is why sometimes the good Doctor works out, I think because the explicitly temporary nature of being a Companion or a Current Incarnation lets them sacrifice characters, have a big deal over it, and then keep going with things changed, but the equation close enough for government work.

As far as "biggest threat" goes, I do sort of wish that after a while of things that could destroy everything, they stopped eulogizing the universe and putting threats into poetic "you can barely wrap your mind around it" terms and just say "Oh. Goddamnit."

I'm with you totally on the human conflicts. It's not really a Story without that side, it's just... escapist wank. Escapist wank is great, but it's not compelling, it's just release.

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[info]calamityjon
2008-07-24 07:33 pm UTC (link)
To be honest, it's just as tedious to me when death is the cost of victory as when it all goes smoothly. There's a lot that can happen to a character between "nothing" and "biting it," I prefer something in that middle ground...

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[info]prof_vencire
2008-07-24 07:55 pm UTC (link)
Just using the extreme options. But yeah, I like the middle-ground.

I want to see them show the strain or have heartache for reasons outside of infatuation and convenience. I want them to have to pay a price besides medium-effort to defeat the bad guys, regardless of whether it actually defeats the bad guys. It's just... more interesting, like you say, when you can't tell exactly how a person is going to turn out. It's why I like those rare stories where they treat how people deal with Insane Crap somewhat realistically but not in the total-breakdown/"Just want things to be normal" crap-trope.

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[info]blackbyrd2
2008-07-24 06:21 pm UTC (link)
I've missed most of the episodes since about midway through season two, so I can't speak to burnout on OMGZORZ MONSTERS FROM SPACE!! yet.
I remarked the other day that I don't know why I like it, but I do. I suppose it's kinda like some kind of secret subversive fetish or something. Kinda like watching soaps, or court TV, or anything else you'd be embarrassed by if anyone found out about. Except I'm not really embarrassed by my fondness for Dr Who. I suppose I can still enjoy it because I haven't spent any time actually analyzing either the show or my attachment.

Cheap thrills, man, cheap thrills. That's what it's all about. :)

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[info]maxineofarc
2008-07-24 06:26 pm UTC (link)
I have a rough time with this show. I can't really figure out why I keep watching it, since invariably I find it bleak, poorly allegorical, and/or just plain anvilicious, and I can't figure out why it's not as obvious to everyone on the show as it is to me that the Doctor is bad news. I liked the show back in the 70s and 80s, when the "we're doing this with duct tape, string and Douglas Adams" production gave it a sense of real adventure and actual fun that I rather enjoy in my sci-fi and think the new series is missing.

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[info]hooper_x
2008-07-24 07:36 pm UTC (link)
I like the new Doctor Who pretty well. It's got some great bits, and there are some retardedly awful bits. I have a pretty healthy nostalgia for the original, and my wife, who knew nothing about it this time last year, enjoys the sheer vastness of it - the fact that you could spend an entire week doing nothing but watching Doctor Who and you still wouldn't have everything down.

To use a similar example, look at the 80's GIJoe. You have an "elite military force" of dudes dressed either in green pajamas or as rejected Village People fighting a "terrorist army" of snake-themed morons in blue pajamas. And it's dumb and goofy and it's fun as hell. Flash forward 20 years when the kids who grew up on it are "adults" and want something "more adult" and you end up with someone trying to slap a Tom Clancy-style military thriller edge on... a bunch of dudes in green pajamas fighting snake-themed dudes in blue pajamas. I hear they got Warren Ellis to write a new thing, and it's going to have Snake-Eyes killing people and cities getting blown up and all that TOTALLY ADULT AND EDGY stuff, which is totally what I expect from the universe that gave us motherfucking Serpentor.

Originally, at least, this stuff is dumb fun and cheap thrills, in much the way your Golden Age comics were - Superman fights a giant jack in the box on the moon and the entire explanation is "Some weird race of aliens left it there." And it's fine and it's fun. Things get stupid when you introduce Fandom With A Capital F into the mix, because they demand things like "continuity" and "thematic consistency" and "slashiness" and all that other horsecock that turns something goofy and freewheeling and fun into a big pretentious house of dumb.

I think part of the problem arises when you take something that was never meant to be super serious and try to bolt on deeper meaning. Don't get me wrong, I marked out pretty hard a couple of times during the Who finale, but yeah. When you take something like Doctor Who and you try to make it Serious, it immediately becomes patently obvious that the Doctor is kind of a fucking sociopath who fucks up, intentionally or otherwise, everything and everyone he ambles into.

Personally, I eagerly await the revelation that the TARDIS actually fucking hates the Doctor, and has been trying to kill him the entire time and he's just too caught up in his WHEE I'M A COSMIC VAGABOND bullshit to even notice.

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[info]calamityjon
2008-07-24 07:53 pm UTC (link)
I think part of the problem arises when you take something that was never meant to be super serious and try to bolt on deeper meaning.

You know how I can write volumes on the symbolism and mythos of Superman, a thing which was never supposed to be taken seriously? It's because it is in these fantasy tropes that we unconsciously explore common mythological themes. The symbolism in Superman that we can unravel today was not necessarily in him when he got started, but it's been collected from the picking and choosing of contributed material over the last seventy years.

In no way can I cotton to the idea that the 'problem' with some show or concept that fails to hit the mark is that "it's being taken too seriously." The problem is when it's taken too frivolously, when writers conflate something being "OMG Awesome!" with good storytelling, and when - sorry to do this - people like you ennoble dumb fun and cheap thrills as advertised on the tin.

"Dumb fun and cheap thrills" don't resonate with popular identity, if folks mark out for He-Man or GIJoe thirty years after its heyday, it's because there is something profound within them that sticks with some component of their contemporary identity.

Also, the only flaw with fandom is that they're so hungry as a community to be fed the trappings of their obsessions that they have no interest in holding their suppliers to any consistent level of quality, see BTVS fans. Otherwise, I can't blame them for the source material being shitty, I blame the guys who don't think it's worth their time to write something that's actually good versus merely full of catch phrases and special effects.

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I enjoy having discussions like these, because it lets me tease ideas out further.
[info]hooper_x
2008-07-24 08:25 pm UTC (link)
Well, I said it was part of the problem, not the whole shebang. There's definitely something to be said for going beyond what's immediately there. I mean I'm a giant giant giant dork for plastic fantasy robots, and that's because plastic fantasy robots resonate with me on some specific level - the idea that any old car or truck or laptop could in fact be a kickass battle robot, and that they're all alive and have their own crazy personalities and all that; that's really awesome and I like it. GIJoe resonates because above and beyond goofy dudes in pajamas failing to shoot each other, it's about heroism and fighting for what's right and all that jazz. And so on and so forth.

Upon further thought, I said "being taken too seriously" when I meant was more along the lines of "trying to be profound/serious in a hamfisted way." There are awesome ways to do comic heroes in a thought provoking, insightful, and serious manner. You can do He-Man or Thundercats or Care Bears in a serious manner (presumably). Then there's the idea that "mature" means "full of mayhem and fucked up stuff." I think that general area is more what I was stabbing at. It's okay to take something and futz with it and add things, but when it's added in a hamfisted or ill-conceived way, the results are at best goofy and at worst can shipwreck the entire thing.

One of the other parts ties in to your second point - fandom takes whatever it's fed and sometimes it's really awful and there's almost a vibe from some corners of 'fuck it, we can shit in a box and put Darth Vader's face on it and it'll sell'. That's awful and it sucks.

This other thing, and I was just talking about this on someone else's LJ, is this idea of fandom itself taking both the topic of its fixation as well as taking the fandom as a community so seriously that it stops being fun and becomes... I think the word I'm looking for is frustrating. All the petty backbiting and sniping and complaining about how Whoever Makes The Thing I Like, Inc. isn't catering to my exact desires and that means they HATE THE FANS and so on and so forth. It's not just that fans are starved for their obsession, it's that nothing is *ever* good enough, which produces an astonishing combination of desperation and ingratitude. By all means, be critical, but a lot of Capital F Fandom types are *never fucking satisfied.* I find that terribly frustrating, to the point where I've pretty much quit hanging out in the larger reconfigurable hyperarticulated paperweight community, because the bitching and the whining and the pissing and the moaning, despite the best efforts within reason of a multimillion dollar toy company to accommodate the whims and wishes of a fanbase that probably couldn't fill a football stadium... well, it's irritating.

But that's probably a different topic entirely. woo, tangent. The point is, it's not so much trying to handle something in a mature and intelligent manner, it's when that attempt at maturity turns into stupid bullshit. Oh man, the perfect example is totally the Dreamwave reboot of Transformers - this totally dark and edgy and ADULT new version of Transformers! Because like, they STEP ON THIS DUDE. While he's PISSING IN THE WOODS! See? That's totally showing you how serious we are!

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Re: I enjoy having discussions like these, because it lets me tease ideas out further.
[info]prof_vencire
2008-07-25 01:11 am UTC (link)
Thing is, it's the seriousness that's sort of a problem with the new Dr. Who. They seem to feel compelled to throw a Big Obvious Moral in, or Big Ethical Dilemma, or other preaching, but don't feel like compromising their Whiz-Bang OMG Awesome as much as they need to for it to work.

It's like being lectured about complex ethical issues by the Carebears. The levels just... don't match up.

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Re: I enjoy having discussions like these, because it lets me tease ideas out further.
[info]prof_vencire
2008-07-25 01:11 am UTC (link)
Possibly with other incarnations of Dr. Who, as well, but we're not talking about them.

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Re: I enjoy having discussions like these, because it lets me tease ideas out further.
[info]hooper_x
2008-07-25 01:16 am UTC (link)
Funny you should mention that...

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Re: I enjoy having discussions like these, because it lets me tease ideas out further.
[info]hooper_x
2008-07-25 01:16 am UTC (link)
I'd buy that. It tries to make a heavy statement, but it isn't willing to... I don't want to say "grow up"... but it isn't willing to shed an equivalent amount of silliness in order to pull it off. I'd say this has pretty much ALWAYS been an issue with Doctor Who, though - I recently watched one from the 80s that was about the nature of change and evolution and how societies have to adapt or die and blah blah blah and it was awesome except that it was all being explained (in a somewhat hamfisted manner) to a guy who looked like Ian McKellen in a gold lame version of that priest outfit from the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Maybe the issue is striking a balance between "goofy shit" and "deep shit." Goofy shit and deep shit can coexist (as Kurt Vonnegut could gladly demonstrate), but finding the right ratio can be a bit of a problem.

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[info]dryponder
2008-07-25 04:07 am UTC (link)
i guess it was a good end to the rtd run, bringing EVERYTHING back (i was most pleased by K-9 showing up), but it just seemed pretty weak next to the ending of the library episode a few weeks ago.

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[info]fiduch
2008-07-28 04:59 am UTC (link)
i've overall enjoyed this new doctor who incarnation as well, including that season finale.

torchwood, however, which i've been watching recently just out of curiosity, seems to be nothing but a huge fandom wankfest. seriously, every other episode involves some convoluted love triangle, and with half the bloody characters seemingly bisexual, it's literally terrible slash fiction brought to fictional life. i wonder if davies did this on purpose in order to throw a bone to the crazy slashers out there who want nothing more than to see the doctor kiss another dude... "well, i'm not turning the inviolate doctor into a fangirl/boi sex object, but here! have captain jack harkness! he's all yours."

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